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Dear all,
Due to the proliferation of new ROM's, the Wizard forum is in need of a bit of housekeeping. The mods cannot do this alone, so we are asking for your help.
1) The four most used kitchens have been stickied for the moment and questions regarding any ROM's you cook based on these kitchens should be posted in the appropriate thread. Please do not start a separate thread. Anichillus Core Professional kitchen is also found in the Development and Hacking forum since it is used for multiple devices and is beyond the scope of many basic users. Users beware. I may de-sticky the kitchens upon further discussions with the mods, but right now the structure will stand as it is.
2) On the same note, I'm asking for kitchen authors to notify me or other mods concerning useless posts in these threads (e.g. Why didn't you include "x" application? or posts that are inflammatory or non-technical in nature). They will promptly be deleted as we shouldn't have to wade through 20 posts of BS to get to relevant tech info.
3) All of the kitchens stickied are based wholly or in part on Bepe's tools and are of the same basic architecture. Therefore no more kitchens will be stickied unless they are truly unique or offer a substantially more comprehensive interface.
4) Also, it's sometimes better for a lot of people to refine one ROM than for a few people to refine a lot of ROM's. I know there are a thousand aspiring cooks out there right now since the kitchens have been released. You may be tempted to release your own ROM to the masses either because you think it's a great ROM or because you want to be known around the board. Resist the temptation. Unless your ROM offers a very innovative user experience (e.g. Touch), it is not likely to get a huge following and might just cause more confusion for the non-developers on this board, you might do better to try to collaborate with some fellow developers in creating a very good ROM.
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY (and you know who I'm talking to). Some people have repeatedly posted in this forum despite the fact that their posts had nothing to do with Windows Mobile 6 specific issues on the Wizard (i.e "My Herald..." or ("Do you have this software from a Nokia?"). We will issue 3 warnings through PM's but after that you might be up for a temporary ban. This will only happen if you're a repeat offender. Heck we've all posted in the wrong place at one point or another. If possible we may move the post to a more appropriate location but it would save everyone a lot of work and aggravation if the posts are made in the correct forum.
I hope this helps a bit. If you have suggestions for how we can make this place better, please air them here. If you have a complaint with a mod, please PM me first. I don't like public conflict and most of you don't either.
jwzg said:
Dear all,
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY (and you know who I'm talking to)..
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not nice.,...
btw.
upgrade forum to allow people REMOVE own posts/topics, first.
Users can manage, with proper USUAL forum options, too.
smells like we vs. THEM,again,.
"same architecture" - yup, yup, but why i can see potential with new user cook result, and i can't with older builds?
it is random novadays(lack of your knowledge + newbie enthusiasm can make miracles).
I agree that a strong hand is needed. For this i suggest that there should be a special part in the forum where to move threads that have no replies for hmm...30 days ...?
I don't know too much stuff about forums but i think that would mean a nasty job for you guys so...just a suggestion. Or better...delete them or move them to an sort of recycle bin.
Regarding switching to a new upgraded forum, i think that would be an immense hard work also and it will leave the community off line for few days. It may be needed to come to that soon but that's not a big problem.
But i agree that allowing people to delete their own posts would be nice. But on the other hand, considering hours i spent here reading, i kinda got used to this look
I will PM you with posts to delete but beware that i may be more strict than you and i don't want to waste your time...so i will filter myself.
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
nothin said:
not nice.,...
btw.
upgrade forum to allow people REMOVE own posts/topics, first.
Users can manage, with proper USUAL forum options, too.
smells like we vs. THEM,again,.
"same architecture" - yup, yup, but why i can see potential with new user cook result, and i can't with older builds?
it is random novadays(lack of your knowledge + newbie enthusiasm can make miracles).
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You are reading this wrong. I had about four or five posters who after two or three moved threads and a couple of PM's continued to post totally irrelevant posts in the Wizard Mobile 6 thread. I this was aimed at repeat offenders and not at the occasional screwup. By they way, you can modify your post or ask a mod to move it if you like. Not a big deal.
I'm not trying to be a jerk at all, but I'm not trying to be nice either. I just see the same old builds with different package combo's that anyone could make with the kitchen and a little ingenuity. However, folks like Zoki and the-equinoxe have done some fine things with the touch software that are truly innovative and add substance to the user experience. I for one have partially adapted the T-Mobile wing OEM package to the Wizard (yes camera too, but the image is transposed and my-faves doesn't work). That's true ROM cooking and not just throwing a few packages into a cooker and presto.
It is not "us" against them. It's those who have a bit more experience actually doing our best to take this forum up another level instead of settling for ssdd.
shantzg001 said:
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
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I'm working on this...
all the old versions of Roms should be deleted too...like the very first wm6 roms theres no need for them
shantzg001 said:
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
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Fixed by admin. Thanks for the heads up.
ANTC said:
all the old versions of Roms should be deleted too...like the very first wm6 roms theres no need for them
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I disagree. There is history and things that can be found in those threads... Unless XDA-Developers is hurting for space, what is actually removed needs to be really determined that it isn't something that may help. I just did a Google search (I've given up trying to use the search here, easier to use Google's advanced searching techniques in most cases) and found an answer in the original Crossbow thread from January. Just deleting stuff because its "Old" is a bad idea IMO... Getting rid of the hundreds of "Help, I bricked my phone!" threads is even questionable as I wonder how many people have fixed a phone due to those and never posted anything here...
Remember there area a LOT of people that read and never post here. Yeah, it gets old answering the same questions over and over again (so I've taken the route where I've quit answering some of those.
mfrazzz said:
I disagree. There is history and things that can be found in those threads... Unless XDA-Developers is hurting for space, what is actually removed needs to be really determined that it isn't something that may help. I just did a Google search (I've given up trying to use the search here, easier to use Google's advanced searching techniques in most cases) and found an answer in the original Crossbow thread from January. Just deleting stuff because its "Old" is a bad idea IMO... Getting rid of the hundreds of "Help, I bricked my phone!" threads is even questionable as I wonder how many people have fixed a phone due to those and never posted anything here...
Remember there area a LOT of people that read and never post here. Yeah, it gets old answering the same questions over and over again (so I've taken the route where I've quit answering some of those.
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true i guess I worded my statement wrong I ment delete old Rom threads like the different versions of roms...i have no need for my version 1-3.5 beta threads you see what i mean...and I think we should have a bricked phone help thread I even wrote a quick tut on my other site to save a bricked MDA..you understand were im getting at
Gulp - I hope I didn't start something we will all regret with my post "Why all these new WM6 ROMs?" http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=313781
Let us not forget that apart from a very few idiots this is a great place to be. I have learnt a lot from this forum considering that I do not have a background in computing.
It has even stimulated my interest to the extent that I have assembled my own computer. Didn't save me money and my wife cannot understand it but I have ended up with exactly what I wanted which a store built machine could not have given me.
I hope you understand the analogy.
Let's just make sure that "We don't throw out the baby with the bath water".
No, you didn't start anything scotch whiskey that hadn't already been brewing a bit. I think my modified OP is a little nicer, but still gets the point across.
ANTC said:
true i guess I worded my statement wrong I ment delete old Rom threads like the different versions of roms...i have no need for my version 1-3.5 beta threads you see what i mean...and I think we should have a bricked phone help thread I even wrote a quick tut on my other site to save a bricked MDA..you understand were im getting at
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I agree with both you and mfrazzz.
What if someone doesn't want to use the latest version of a ROM, they don't like some changes or whatever, they will need those older threads for reference material. Also I notice lots of people asking questions, only to be referred to older threads. There isn't any use reinventing the wheel so to speak.
I think a good idea would be for developers (or just real supportive people) to make kind of an FAQ for some of these older versions, a "best of" list of questions and answers. It can be posted in the forum, it can be on some website somewhere, or in the XDA FTP, whatever. Not only would it give people a good place to refer to, but it might also eventually lead to a cut-down of basically the same questions.
Only then would I think removing older threads be a good idea. I know that wasn't entirely the point of this thread, but hey, mr smart guy back there decided to take a shot so I am too. I for one am right in there with him, I think its THE MAN against US. Oh yes, yes it is. oh noes. <3
jonflow said:
Only then would I think removing older threads be a good idea. I know that wasn't entirely the point of this thread, but hey, mr smart guy back there decided to take a shot so I am too. I for one am right in there with him, I think its THE MAN against US. Oh yes, yes it is. oh noes. <3
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Guys, it's NOT the man against anyone. We'd just like to get some real development going on here instead of everyone releasing slightly different versions of the same ROM.
I don't like this talk
Everybody should have the right to publish his work, no matter what hi did.
The rest will judge his work and he will learn something. Only those who didn't do anything can't understand this.
Old topics should remain, I like to jump back to learn something, for new members old topics is a must.
If you must do something to show us you're administrator rights, do something good, like option to close the thread.
Zoki, no one said members can't publish their work. I just honestly believe more of it should be along the lines of what you did with the touch stuff. I truly admire your work because it was bleeding edge (still may be) and that's developing which is why this board exists. I'm not trying to flatter you here to gain your support either. It's just when people throw your name all over a splash screen it doesn't really make it their work since most all of the ROM's here are cooked using kitchens from other authors with packages from other members and yes, even HTC. If that sounds big-brother-ish, it's not intended that way. Just make sure credit is given to the quite literally hundreds of people who've made this possible. We're already having problems in other forums right now with people asking for donations in return for tech support for ROM's they've cooked with other's tools. That is one of the many issues we're trying to be proactive about here.
Regarding closing threads, I'm not an administrator, and they have chosen not to give OP's the rights to close their threads. If you want your thread closed, please PM me and I have the rights close it quickly. If you want someone else's thread closed, well, you can request it, but it may or may not happen.
BTW, the old threads were not deleted, and I strongly believe they shouldn't be. Admin simply made a mistake in a setting, and all of the old threads are visible as per our request.
As a mod, I'm just trying to do my best to make sure that we have an orderly forum and we are developing, which is the forum's purpose.
hey jwzg we aren't really calling you a bad person, we know you're looking out for us I agree though, the roms are starting to look the same except for one or two programs, and the splash screens. It would be better for people to just explain what was in a new ROM scheme they came up with, and it would encourage more people to start learning how to make their own ROMs, therefore making them more intellectual in this particular field, which is a good thing. knowledge is power. But hey its just my opinion!
jwzg said:
Guys, it's NOT the man against anyone. We'd just like to get some real development going on here instead of everyone releasing slightly different versions of the same ROM.
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just to let you know that the REAL develepor regrets now releasing the rom kitchen tools....
jonflow said:
the roms are starting to look the same except for one or two programs, and the splash screens.
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sorry i am noone for you all, my "senior" member status sounds like joke but...
everything is the same imo now, also, theres no real help lately; only people that can have answers are like "how to flash my phoooone", "did i brickeeeeed?" etc.
there's no real customisation of "custom" builds.
seems like checking some oempacks' ticks is making these current OSes special...
i can't get an answer for my problems, despite i tend to help people someOM:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=322228
i spent MONTH to make this, and what?
nobody wants to help.
ok, clean this forum up, you may remove my babbling now....
everything i know bout wizard customisation is from that site...but now, in "touch" soft times, there's nothing that makes wizard better, just nothing.
it became playground for kids or what...
sorry for funny english, i cant do better...
i want to say thank you to:
Faria,
Anichillus,
mattk_r
jwzg
double_ofour
zoki
and many many more people that made me ..learning, not copying.
allright, time to watch another touch skin post...
Myself i've been reading most of the time, only lately did i start posting to test some bugs in builds. The issue at hand is a double edged sword. Yes i solved many problems wading through old posts. But i also solved a lot of issues just reading an entire thread. I will never be able to create a kitchen but it sure is nice knowing that when i want to i can build a rom entirely to my liking. But indeed to many Build threads these day are the same. And most of the issues handled, but then spread across multiple build threads, are mostly about the same problems. Mainly issues with specific base roms and aplication incompatibilities. I think a lot of the solving of these issues is slowed down because of the spread through topics. Maybe setting up a rule that Roms that get posted and aren't updated or have any fixes posted should not be taken seriously and can be deleted. This way less Rom versions circulate the thread and only higher quality builds by Chefs are available. Also a good rule might be to have the cooks post more info about the sources and tools used for their builds, like Kitchen used, Base used, Patches used oem packages used. So new users more easily understand that no Rom has no history. It also takes away the polish of parading with your ego. Maybe even changing the main wizard topics into
1. Kitchen Development
2. How To & Troubleshooting
3. Rom Builds testing
4. Custom Made Software & tweaks
5. Hardware and Accesoires
6. To be Deleted (either move topics or delete them when re/placed into new main topics)
Then indeed phase out unneeded old posts if the information is passed into new threads that accordingly aknowledge the sources.
What i'm trying to say is, to change the perception a bit more that this is not a Technical support site and more of a doing site.
I think the main topics can set an expectation and the current ones don't give the impression that flashing is not kids biznz.
Also it looks like there are to many uploads of the same home screens, software etc. (i think even i am quilty of that).
I'm all for a big clean up but with the focus on retaining the history and origin as much as possible even if it means loosing a few classic threads.
You as admin can set the tone and expectation and a clear message should be sent to junior cooks that collaboration is what drives this site.
Admins, thank you for EVENTUALLY listening to us.
However, can we take this a tad further? Somebody's obviously spent quite some time moving threads across and the result is....
a mess, same as every other XDA-Devs forum.
Is there any scope at all for even more sub forums under the existing x7510 one? Obvious ones that jump to mind is a sub forum just for bricked devices, another just for ROMs and perhaps one for performance related matters.
Having different sub forums makes everybody's lives easier and it means you guys have the opportunity to deliver highly targeted advertising (which should bring in more money for you). Everybody wins!
Alternatively we can just go with the present formula, which basically consists of 20 or so stickies at the top, followed by a mish-mash that makes it very difficult to find things even when using the search function.
I would LOVE to see how you lot structure folders on your own systems! If it is anything like XDA-Devs then I gues you often experience that "now-where-did-I-save-it" feeling!
I say patience...and thanks for the child-forum! Maybe we could make a sticky on how to use some prefix or header labels at the beginning of the thread title, e.g. Bricked: after Kaiser rom update my x7510 went black - HELP! or ROM-DL: official HTC X7510 at last! for ROM download links...
@ NanoRuler
I have read your comments here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=437317 and elsewhere and now in this thread.
I feel I have to say there are a few things you have said that I find more than a little offensive - just a some of your comments in relation to Admin / Mods / Organisation:
"piss-poor organisation"
"admins here are stubbornly refusing to create a dedicated sub forum"
"admins, especially seeing as they cannot even be bothered to respond to any request"
"My, what an excellent example of good organisation....NOT"
Mixing the above style of comment into your posts, along with your tone in your first post in this thread, is not likely to endear you to Mods, Admins and long standing members here. You see there may be quite a lot of truth in what you say, but it is spoiled by those barbed and untrue comments.
We do monitor how things are going and how things can change, but you have to realise that only a couple of years ago the membership was only a couple of hundred, now it's grown to 195000 active menbers (We MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT!) and a membership well over 1 Million. Add to this that the whole show is kept on the road by a handful of voluntary Mods and 1 Admin who does not have 100% of her time dedicated to the site.
The idea that she has "piss-poor organisation" and has "stubbornly refused to set up a forum", aside from being untrue, is also insulting. As you might imagine with only one Admin, you have to wait to see what overall demand is before leaping in to create new Forum. It does create added Moderation work when new Fora are added and there is nothing more disappointing for members to find a forum that never gets answers because nobody goes there. The demand is guaged over a period of time and when the level seems sufficiently high the Forum is created.
With the level of paid staff = slightly less than 1, you cannot achieve military style organisation and everything working like a Swiss watch. (... and do you know I don't think I'd like it if it did.)
Yes we have a few rough edges (that's what makes us so lovable) and believe me I agree we can improve things over time, only don't expect perfection from such a small team. We rely on members to contribute and make helpful suggestions and to do it politely 'cos we do the best we can with the resources we have - and that includes limited time.
Mike
EDIT: It was me who moved a lot of posts from the Athena Forum to here. You know, while I was doing it I was thinking, this will be awkward without sub-fora for ROM-Development etc. (You see I was thinking along the same lines as YOU). It somewhat cheesed me off though,when I came here, to be told it was a "mess". I disagree, "Mess" is too strong a word, but I do agree we may need a Development Forum at some point.
OK, let's take this from the top, shall we?
"piss-poor organisation"
Please go to this forum, http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=374, then tell me how to find a recent ROM in amongst everything else. I accept your arguments about the growth of XDA-Dev's (hey, despite my objections I remain a fan!) and the lack of admins and moderators. But let's be fair here, have you guys actually ASKED any more members to help out?
I KNOW what's involved being a Mod in a busy forum, I was one at MCMCSE.com, but you can still spread the load a tad more, and delegate tasks more (such as delegate the ability to create sub forums to Mods).
If anything, this struggle to contain the load supports MY argument that XDA-Dev's is NOT very well organised at all. Yes, hindsight is always 20/20 so it is easy for me to now say having seperate sub forums just for ROMs will make things better organised for everybody, and yes, I probably wouldn't have set it up that way had I been asked when XDA-Dev;s was started. But just because there was an oversight in the beginning does it now mean it must be perpetuated?
"admins here are stubbornly refusing to create a dedicated sub forum" and
"admins, especially seeing as they cannot even be bothered to respond to any request"
Hmmm....let me see..... Many requests over a period of more than three months and nobody even bothered to reply to us? Yes, that IS stubbornly refusing. As was stated here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=420259 "Mod Edit: Darn I was enjoying watching them suffer!!" was probably intended as a joke, but may well have been a freudian slip!
If you guys weren't being stubborn about it, why didn't you just come back to us and state your reasons for delaying. Why blank us for more than three months?
I think you'll find you guys pretty much scored an own-goal there.
"My, what an excellent example of good organisation....NOT"
Again, you've almost admitted that XDA-Dev's is NOT the best organised forum in the world. That comment was made in response to rorydaredkign's suggestion that using a few stickies would solve all our woes. It was NEVER aimed at this site, its admin or mods, but was only ever aimed at Rory's silly suggestion!
Nobody expects perfection, least of all me. Just don't blank us and don't ignore us. I find THAT insulting, because when you ignore somebody you're also saying through your behaviour that they aren't worthy of your attention. ('ll certainly bear this comment of mine in mind should you choose not to reply )
Nobody expects military organisation, either. Over-organising can be far worse than not organising at all.
Again, at the time that I stated so, admins/mods WERE refusing to create a seperate x7510 sub forum, so I have to disagree with your claim that what I had said was untrue. I'm a lot of things, but I'm NOT a liar, nor have I ever been. (Sadly "endearing" isn't a term typically used to describe me, either!)
Now, having said all of that, I'll also say that I WAS pissed off, especially by the lack of response/action, so I accept that I may have been too quick to accuse.
I wish to apologise for that to the admin, the mods and most members here.
Finally Mike, I NEVER intended the word MESS to describe the seperate x7510 section. Moving everything here in record time must have been an enormous pain and such a move can never immediately result in any degree of order.
Right, I can't change my signature message in that post, so this post is made purely to show the updated signature.
-Edit:- And yet, the signature has changed!
Hi
Okay, I accept there are some vailid points you make. I can assure you there is and has been no deliberate action to stop (or slow down) a forum being created. I think you do have a point about not hearing anything on whether a forum would be created for 3 months. I don't know if I'm proud to say it but that was probably due to a bit of "muddling through", rather than any deliberate action to ignore the forum request. (Almost a case of wait for the clamour for a forum to get very loud and then create it / if not then the request withers on the vine. NOT the most respectful way to deal with the membership I agree but with no guaranteed or co-ordinated hours being put in by Mods and admin (responsibilities for other things)then a more planned approach tends to remain as a good idea but does not get delivered in practice.
Whether Mods should have powers to create forums is an interesting one. Also not one for me to answer. The Admin reports to a Management group and I guess it would be their and her decision. I can see such a suggestion meeting some resistance if only because Mods come and go fairly frequently and to have power over the structure of the boards might be thought a step too far.
... and now I must go to work... late already
Mike
EDIT: I think it's likely you have a lot to offer this Forum, you are obviously interested and have ideas about it. All I would say is, start with the assumption that the Mods and Admin are not against you but with you. We may be slow to change things, for all the reasons I give, but there is no deliberate action to ignore members and you can always send a PM to Mods or Admin if you think something is being missed by us.
Now is time to BUILD the x7510 section!.
Thanks mike for moving the X7510 3Ds here, I am ready to listen suggestions and to better organize the section.
May be Mickyprima or Irus or some other chef would like to be the FIRST in releasing a new ROM?
A sticky "Rom development" thread is needed?
I agree, "it is a start", next step is up to you ( I have an X7500)
sergiopi said:
Now is time to BUILD the x7510 section!.
Thanks mike for moving the X7510 3Ds here, I am ready to listen suggestions and to better organize the section.
May be Mickyprima or Irus or some other chef would like to be the FIRST in releasing a new ROM?
A sticky "Rom development" thread is needed?
I agree, "it is a start", next step is up to you ( I have an X7500)
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Yeah, I moved the more obvious 7510 threads, but not being overly knowledgable about the device, it's entirely possible there are several other threads that need moved.
Also there were a couple that I stickied, because they appeared of on-going importance, but I could be wrong about them. So yes, as sergiopi says, feedback is needed.
Mike
EDIT: side note - many of the moved threads I gave a two day expiring redirect - so they will still appear in the Athena section for a couple of days - just in case that confuses anybody!!
NanoRuler said:
Obvious ones that jump to mind is a sub forum just for bricked devices, another just for ROMs and perhaps one for performance related matters.
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there is no such subforums for x7500 either...except for the one for ROMs of course, and I think that could be a good idea, or maybe rename this section as x7510 and x7510 ROMs.
slow...but sure...
NanoRuler...you need to remember that the 7510 is still a very *new* device and not many members/peeps have it. I have searched the net high and wide for info on the 7510 and to be honest the only place where I get any real info is at these boards...so it may be lacking in many things right now but it is the BEST you can find online...and I know over time things will improve as more people buy this device. I have mine for a few weeks now but I still prefer my universal only cause the 'cooks' have not started working their magic as yet and out of the box I think the 7510 is kinda lame/lacking...
I am reminded by something my dear grand-mom would tell me back in the day...'It's not what you say, but how you say it'.
Count me in if more hands are needed to get things moving faster...and thanks to all the peeps in this forum for making this place a blast to visit.
youmeus said:
NanoRuler...
I am reminded by something my dear grand-mom would tell me back in the day...'It's not what you say, but how you say it'.
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AGREED -- whatever the usefulness of NanoRuler's comments, the negative attitude that is so evident (even in follow-up msg. -- I didn't perceive any real change or even a genuine apology) turned me off and I found myself skimming over much of what he said.
brucewilsonpa said:
AGREED -- whatever the usefulness of NanoRuler's comments, the negative attitude that is so evident (even in follow-up msg. -- I didn't perceive any real change or even a genuine apology) turned me off and I found myself skimming over much of what he said.
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And you did WHAT exactly to campaign for a seperate section? Yeah, I thought so, buddy!
Currently I think you will find YOUR attitude is not exactly positive, particularly so seeing as you are raking up ground that has already been covered.
And you perceived no real change, nor a genuine apology?
I made my my apologies, after having defended myself first. In fact, I do believe I could clearly show that I was wrongly accused in some parts. Yet despite this I felt the need to apologise - I was not forced, sweet-talked or otherwise coerced into an apology. If that's nor real or genuine enough for you, well, though luck matey!
How bloody dare you judge me or anybody else? Who exactly do you think you are?
In your case you've just "skimmed" to the end, in your case too, I will be polite and allow you to pick the 1st word, but the second word most certainly is "off".
It is time to start talking about x7510 again here instead of members mood, attitude, friendliness...
Wow! I merely shared my perception and end up being attacked and castigated. No offense intended but surely I'm allowed to share with you how you appear to come across -- why are you so quick to assume I (or others) are "judging" you? I think the tone of your msg. vindicates my "perception" -- you can villify me and attack me but this is the last word I offer. Let's get back to discussing the important stuff.
Hmmmm....here's what you said:
"even in follow-up msg. -- I didn't perceive any real change or even a genuine apology) turned me off and I found myself skimming over much of what he said"
THAT is judgemental. In case you don't believe me, look up the meaning of the word.
Don't back off with statements like "I merely shared my perception and end up being attacked and castigated", "No offense intended but surely I'm allowed to share with you how you appear to come across" and "I think the tone of your msg. vindicates my 'perception'".
If you merely wanted to share your opinion regarding how I came across, why didn't you think to do so in a PM, as opposed to a public critique? Why raise it at all well after the fact, when everybody's moved on? And finally, the tone of my message was exactly correct in response to somebody criticising me out of the blue.
At least have the courage of conviction to stand by your earlier statement, instead of trying to wash it away with dribble.
More importantly, have you signed up to put YOUR x7510 potentially at risk to test Cmonex's new unlocker? See, I don't simply spew hot air - I also walk the walk, which is why I've signed up.
Now unless you have something useful to contibute, do us a favour and don't post for a while?
Hi guys,
so, as there are some possibilities, and the question arised, here's a little poll for you.
It's about how developers and users/testers of Android should best communicate.
Quick overview:
This thread has 4k+ entries now, but many people are watching it. It's more like an IRC channel, though.
The Linux-To-Go site has 4 different trackers (bugs, patches, support, feature requests), and a news system and a little bit more. Sometimes it is quite slow, but since they've just got a new sponsor, I think they're working out how to distribute the load.
I have already asked whether we can have a subforum, and the site admin seemed positive about it, but wanted to see into which directions the Mod's discussions were.
If you have a better idea, please post!
Stefan
I prefer the googlecode bugtracker, since the most people dosnt need to create an new account, it is simple but powerfull. And the ui looks much better then the Linux-To-Go one.
Looks like guys here voting mostly for just subforum. May I suggest in this case that there would be few sticky topics for guides/overall discussion and the rest is topic per bug type-o-thing? Someone would be a moderator, of course.
it doesn't even matter what we / you think - the only votes that matter are the ones of the developers.
git seems to work quite well for developing - if ltg is too slow - it shouldn't be a problem to clone it to a faster repo elsewhere (afaik there's already a faster one in place - can't remember the address) - also after the initial setup it doesn't really matter how slow it is anymore (unless you don't know how to use git and constantly start over from scratch).
As for bugtracking - are there developers interested in bugtracking? I think they're well aware of what needs work.
(e.g. for Polaris it's documented in the wiki)
What we really need at the moment is kernel developers for various devices.
just my 2 ¢
Tip
I don't dislike the idea of a full thread as it was...but i feel we should split threats into 50 posts. After could be "Part II" , "Part III"...etc.
Hugs
excogitation said:
As for bugtracking - are there developers interested in bugtracking? I think they're well aware of what needs work.
(e.g. for Polaris it's documented in the wiki)
What we really need at the moment is kernel developers for various devices.
just my 2 ¢
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, I suggested a bug tracker, even for developers-internal use because then one can see what the other devs are working on and that one doesn't have to care about the problem...
More developers would be good, of course!!
Stefan
seidler2547 said:
Actually, I suggested a bug tracker, even for developers-internal use because then one can see what the other devs are working on and that one doesn't have to care about the problem...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is more to it. First, more eyes will be able to find more bugs. Second, bug tracker allows instead of keeping all bugs in head, constantly trying to remember them all, keep in head only one on which working currently, while the rest is recorded in database according to their priority. No one has superhuman memory. Also, bugtracking important because people generally happier with product that is with not too many features but robust rather than product with whole bunch of awesomeness but also hosting whole hive of bugs. Here's good article on bugtracking.
Thanks MooNWalker. Seems we should try to push a bit more for a subforum, and use the bugtracker for the reasons you said. We should see if the LTG one can be extended so that people will not have to sign up in order to make contributions. The site itself seems fast right now.
Stefan
Ok, we will try with the bugtracker.
Go here to see the bugs and to enter new ones.
Stefan
@seidler2547: Can you change something there? It is currently not obvious that this is the bugtracker for Kaiser Android. You have to know that this is the right place there. If i was new here and i what to fast post a bug, i will be very confused if the bugtracker is the right one.
Hi lanwin, dzo set up the tracker name. Anyway, it is a bit cryptic because it is not only for Kaiser Android. It is for running Linux (and with it Android) on MSM7x00 devices, that is Kaiser, Nike, Polaris, Vogue and so on. We have a common hardware base, so we coordinate our development. You know you're on the right bug tracker because -> the link here says so, and -> this is the only one in mobile-linux you can report bugs without logging in
Having said that, we can think about the name nevertheless. What do you suggest?
Stefan
Hi Stefan, yep i know that but a non technical user wouldn't do. Even if it is ugly, i suggest "Android for Kaiser, Nike, Polaris, Vogue (MSM7x00)".
Anyway, thanks for bringing Android for this platforms forward!
new sub forum
i think a sub forum is good because it will allow for more specific threads.
it will also allow us to get an rss feed of all things android
finally, can't the current long thread just be moved into the sub-forum? no one will be forced to start or look at new threads, but it will be there.
Does it really affect anything in a negative way or preclude the other options?
Android development is only going to pickup, and i expect we will see a corresponding drop off in WM.
Lets think about what the development scene is going to look like in 2 years... even after we've all moved on from our current phones.
The question is: Can/Should/Will xda-devs be the place for android development too?
seidler2547 said:
Having said that, we can think about the name nevertheless. What do you suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Put link to bugtracker in Android on HTC wiki. Might be helpfull to put it in first post on main thread.
I think this bugtracker was for the full Android port, but it seems that it is only for the kernel so all my bugs are closed with "This is not related to this project (Linux kernel for mobile devices) but to the google android user space and must hence be moved.".
Where to report user spaces related bugs?
That is a good question. I have seen the close, but I'm not too happy with it, although I understand the reasons. Maybe we need to make an extra google bugtracker, as someone suggested.
Stefan
I think the original android post has really become quite cumbersome, I voted for a subforum but I don't really care as long as I am able to see what is going on. The old post has become unorganized there are a bunch of different sites and stuff on that post to get builds and kernels and what not from and I have become somewhat confused with it all. I am curious though as to how many people are actually working on this at our end the only one I see actively posting is seidler is dzo or polypoly still working on it. I'm having problems getting some of the files required listed on source.android.com fiqured I would give it a wack, probly a short wack.
seidler2547 said:
That is a good question. I have seen the close, but I'm not too happy with it, although I understand the reasons. Maybe we need to make an extra google bugtracker, as someone suggested.
Stefan
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This was me I am against a sub forum. Forums are very bad in cases of a bugtracking functionality because there is no bug management available and users tend to use one thread for bug reporting, questions and discussion where it is really hard to find out the bugs for the devs.
I think there should only be one bugtracker for the users because the most of them can not distinguish between user space and kernel space bugs and requests.
I suggest to open a user friendly google code bugtracker and some of the devs move bugs related to kernel space over to the other bugtracker.
These past weeks I've noticed an increase of irrelevant threads and clutter being made in regards to Android development in the HTC Dream forum and every other Android development forum on xda. A lot of Android devices out on the market now are not made by HTC. This of course is causing a problem since this forum is for HTC devices only.
Maybe it would be a good idea if a new forum was created that accounts for all native Android devices (Motorola Droid/Milestone, Motorola Cliq/Dext, Samsung Galaxy, etc...). That way, a lot of the clutter would surely be resolved and a considerate load would be taken off of this server (Gotta hate the horrible load on xda these days...).
I'm sure there are quiet a few people on here that have an HTC device and are fully satisfied with it (Me included!). That doesn't mean that everyone else has to feel the same way. People that choose to go with Samsung, Motorola, etc. for their next Android device should not be left out. That's why I believe there should definitely be a forum that serves everyone.
To put up a new forum specifically for this matter takes no time at all, but it does take participation. So if you feel like this is something you would like to see, please feel free to leave a comment.
What are you're opinions on this matter? Agree? Disagree?
Discuss.
If there's enough people interested in this project, would there be anyone willing to help getting things started in terms of hosting space or something similar?
Sorry, I misunderstood "a new forum was created that accounts for all native Android devices" to mean that a new subforum on XDA should be made, so I voted no. Upon reading it again, I realized you meant to create an independant Android specific site, which I would actually be in favor of. So while I can't change my vote officially, you should know that one of the "No" votes should actually be considered a "Yes" vote.
Yea, sorry. I meant that there should be a completly new forum for all android devices (not a subforum on xda). Thanks for your vote!
Like I mentioned before, there are definitely more people who agree than those who disagree. Only problem will be to spread the word I guess.
I think XDA-Developers needs to be divided into a Windows Mobile and an Android section and those need to be further divided into HTC and non-HTC ones.
With more and more Android devices, and rising competition for HTC from Samsung, Motorola, Sony Ericsson etc., XDA-Developers cannot stay WM-focused and HTC-only without becoming irrelevant and losing its no.1 status for everything concerning WM and Android development.
EDIT: OR make independent, but linked together, sites for WM and Android and for different manufacturers.
maati said:
EDIT: OR make independent, but linked together, sites for WM and Android and for different manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's what I'm thinking as well.
I forsee good things to come from this. Or the thread just being closed.
There needs to be a WinMo forum and Android Forum that are both linked from the home page.
I would be all for this, and would be more than happy to fund the project. Hosting, domain fees, coding ect..
I agree completely. It's also annoying to see various large Android Community sites popping up, which deal with everything android, including all models, which includes HTC models... because they are invading the "mindshare", if you will, of "where does one go to get best development and mod info for android OS phones?" ... When the first Android devices were only HTC, this was not an issue, as HTC was correctly housed here and had Android devices forums added.
But yes, the whole touchscreen marketplace has erupted and fractured in the last 6 months, and it would be a bad thing, in my view, if XDA were to become relegated to a "boutique" site, that was great with SOME andorid devices, but AWOL on others.. And as the original poster notes, there is only bound to be more and more cross-device discussion and innovation developments for the whole android platform.
my 3 cents...
maati said:
I think XDA-Developers needs to be divided into a Windows Mobile and an Android section and those need to be further divided into HTC and non-HTC ones.
With more and more Android devices, and rising competition for HTC from Samsung, Motorola, Sony Ericsson etc., XDA-Developers cannot stay WM-focused and HTC-only without becoming irrelevant and losing its no.1 status for everything concerning WM and Android development.
EDIT: OR make independent, but linked together, sites for WM and Android and for different manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So are most of you in favor that an independent site for Android-only devices should be made (WinMo-only devices could also be added later on to another section).
Or do you think that xda should try to change their forum around so that it will fulfill our needs?
Bavilo said:
So are most of you in favor that an independent site for Android-only devices should be made (WinMo-only devices could also be added later on to another section).
Or do you think that xda should try to change their forum around so that it will fulfill our needs?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm totally new to Android; have not even purchased my HERO yet. So take this with a grain of salt... but to me, I think the train already left the station... In the past three weeks as I have investigated HTC Hero, I have encountered 4 or 5 rather substantial communities already built around Android.... I will just list a few of them. Being truthful, there have been very few poll participants here... and it may well be the case that what you are envisioning as a resource already exists -- it's just not here.
So, to me, you either have to (A) turn the whole mothership around (XDA-devs) and try to make a case for why non-HTC devices should fit in more officially here (they are already accomodated "unofficially" and have been for quite some time on the WinMo side -- with tons of questions asked in many a forum about "What about the Omnia? can you release that for Omnia?" and same for Sony Xperia, as just two examples....
or (B) bridge-out to one or more of the communities already developed around modding Android phones... (but again, I am prob the wrong person to comment since I am brand new to Android... )
http://androidforums.com/
http://androidcommunity.com/forums/index.php
http://forum.androidcentral.com/
http://modmygphone.com/forums/
To me, most of those sites just feel like user communities but not any real development like here at XDA.
narunetto said:
To me, most of those sites just feel like user communities but not any real development like here at XDA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's exactly what I want to change. And thanks to Craiger22 this might be possible very soon!
I do think this site needs to drop it's HTC bias to be honest. It makes choosing a new handset quite horrible. On one hand HTC devices get software support on this forum (which is still the best out there). But on the other hand there are some very nice non-HTC devices coming up. It makes choosing a handset a lot harder.
Fair enough if there's some sort of official affiliation with HTC, I can understand that. But is it not just some nostalgic bias relating to the origins of this site? That's the way I understand it anyway.
Personally there's no HTC hardware I want right now and I think that it's a shame that when I replace my X1 I will (if the HTC hardware situation remains similar to how it is now) wind up leaving this community.
Hey, can we possibly organize the ROMs in this section, if not in all of XDA already.
Make a thread and organize based on the base ROM, or based on the Developer or something. Its just so cluttered.
The way androidspin does it is great. I have webdev experience and am willing to help out.
Sorry if this is in the wrong section, but since it is related to ROM development, I thought it was relevant.
We need to have categories that separate rom types so eclair wont be in the same place as hero and we need mods or think tanks to be in its on sub forum too.
for me that is great idea
Too bad it won't ever happen. Seems like XDA doesn't give a crap about anything anymore...
I've been wishing that they were organized by types, (eclair, hero, etc.) for a long time now too.
+1 for organising by 'Flavour'
why reinvent the wheel when andriodspin does what you're looking for (including link to xda release threads)..?
further, maintaining a list like that (especially in vbulletin thread format) would be a huge chore that would require intimate knowlege of each and every rom that gets posted.
I used to maintain a list of ROMs in my stickied thread until there were more than a handful.
all that being said...if you want to maintain such a list, more power to you. I'm sure people would find it useful.
Agreed,
The problem is some of the roms here tend to get missed by Android spin, especially if they have just been released, or the dev does not use AS.
Also, this would be very beneficial to WinMo users not just Android users.
I am throwing the idea out there hoping that people are in agreement, and we can get XDA to allow us to start working on.
Rather than yet another thread, it would make sense to have a dedicated ROMS page.
alapapa said:
why reinvent the wheel when andriodspin does what you're looking for (including link to xda release threads)..?
further, maintaining a list like that (especially in vbulletin thread format) would be a huge chore that would require intimate knowlege of each and every rom that gets posted.
I used to maintain a list of ROMs in my stickied thread until there were more than a handful.
all that being said...if you want to maintain such a list, more power to you. I'm sure people would find it useful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Q4T.
Besides, if a DEV doesn't bother to post to sites that have lists like AS, who's fault is that, but the DEV.